If only more landlords were like you, there would likely be more independent stores on the high streets of our towns and villages. That rent for an albeit quite a bit bigger pub is insane by comparison.
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Fingers crossed re. DA. It really is the kind of place that should be a hub for FH.
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Does anyone know if DA is actually on the market or available? I had a look online and could not find a thing.
I’ve messaged the agent about them mistakenly stating that it isn’t in a Conservation Area.
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Based on the rent that was sought in 2021, the price of housing around here, and the 5,000 or so sq ft, £1.45m seems quite cheap for all of that.
Which is why a developer would love to buy it, knock it down and turn it into flats. Not so easy to do in a conservation area with other protections for high street retail.
But assuming that meatliquor doesn’t go bankrupt and continues to pay the rent until 2036 (even though they are no longer operating from the site), any purchaser would make their money back in 10 years after which the owner could rent it out at a much lower price as they would have no costs. However, the world doesn’t work like that.
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I agree.
But things were very different in 2021.
Bank of England base rate was 0.1% and people had 1.4% 5yr fixed rate mortgages on their homes, which meant that there was loads of disposable income being splashed around.
Then came the Ukraine war in Feb 2022 - and it all started going to pot.
I’ll give you my own scenario for illustration.
My commercial property loan was at 3.3% over base rate and I was paying £4,600 per month in January 2022.
Then global inflation started to take off, which caused the BofE to start raising base rate and pushing my monthly payments up every other month.
After inflation hit 11% and with base rate topping-out at 5.25% in September 2023, my loan repayments had risen to £13,700 per month.
Today, more generally, people who’d been on those 5yr fixes at 1.4% are having to re-fix at rates that are close to 5%, which is a massive jump and which takes away a big chunk of the disposable income that they (and the economy) were enjoying.
So although it was probably easy to let the Dartmouth Arms for £125k pa under the prevailing economic conditions in 2021, things are massively different today, especially in pubs & eateries (as I understand it) which might make it difficult to find a tenant wanting to pay that level of rent, which, in turn, affects the investment value of the freehold.
Obviously, the economic hit from the Iran war and the uncertainty that it has caused is making investors and a high proportion of businesspeople more cautious and cagey than I’ve seen in my 40 years in property.
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As a landlord who started with £10k savings in 1986 and never been able to afford to make capital repayments whilst acquiring more properties on interest-only finance at commercial rates, my world definitely doesn’t work like that.
There was a period of many years after the 2008 financial crisis when interest rates stayed low for many years and I was able to keep my tenants on ridiculously low rents throughout because I didn’t need the money, but unfortunately I’ve had to rein it in a bit now.
That surprises me.
I wouldn’t’ve thought it would be financially viable, even without the conservation area constraints, because building costs for achieving today’s standards have gone completely mad.
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Gah, this is terrible news for the area, nobody is going to be in a rush to open a pub or any hospitality venue in the current economic (and geopolitical) landscape.
And I liked the burgers.
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Yes, although I don’t deal at that level, my instinct tells me that there is hope that the current leaseholder, Meatailer Ltd, will offer a prospective new operator a reverse premium of say £150k, which would simultaneously potenially limit their ongoing losses (in paying rent and Business Rates for an empty premises) whilst effectively giving the new tenant a year rent-free, which could see them through to less choppy waters after that cushioned start.
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Honest Burger is my fave 
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Mother Flipper in Brockley is/was great too, although I see they have also closed their shop and gone back to doing the food markets only
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As a vegetarian who hardly ever goes to the pub these days I found this thread quite a challenge. But as an amateur local-historian (and trained designer) I realised this burger-themed episode in the chapter of this pub’s history is more relevant to my interests than I had first realised.
The train station was originally called Dartmouth Arms, so this pub/site is totally related to the development of Forest Hill as an identity. I’ll leave the history bit for a proper history thread, you don’t need to wait for me to start one if you are keen enough.
As I actually never went into the pub I do nevertheless find it fascinating that there is this highly distinctive chapter regarding Meatliquor. Evidently this brand excelled in self-mythologization using design and music (‘transmedia’) and for that reason I have just bought the book as this peculiar area of creativity is a special interest of mine.
I was also delighted the Meatliquor book was published by Faber and Faber as we now know TS Eliot (central to Faber) would visit Dartmouth Rd for his evening course he gave on literature in Sydenham School as part of a London County Council scheme to promote adult education.
It also appealed to me that the book cover reminded me of the Minotaur, something connected to the Labyrinth at Albion Millennium Green.
So thanks all for drawing my attention to this mythopoetic-infused meaty phenomenon.
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The book just arrived, and wow, this really is a master class in so-called brand storytelling. It elegantly blurs the genres between cookbook, lifestyle guide and memoir. It feels like it captured a moment very much related to that whole hipsterism in Shoreditch episode which is a whole topic unto itself. It manages to somehow stay on the credible side of an industry that has used irony sometimes just to window dress food and drink, much to its detriment.
Related to my research interest, my takehome is there can be no deep storytelling without aesthetics. And sometimes consumers really are participants in a storytelling theatre, and we are buying the story more than the ingredients/product.
If anyone is studying retail, anthropology or even storytelling this book is highly recommended.
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