Love it or hate it, the idea of the South Circ is to have a simple to follow singular road passing through areas where you can then branch off to for your final destination. For those who travel regularly it is easy to bypass, for those less familiar it is an easy to follow road designation that get you closer to your destination.
I find Woolwich Ferry quite an important destination actually, with it having one of the 2 free river crossings left this end of things.
The road has indeed existed for many decades, and it was it’s continuing and increasing use that made it become the important road that it is today. Unfortunately (for some) it just happens to run through the town they now call home. I would be curious to know how many original moved to the area to be close to such transport options only to feel differently further down the line.
As for the “all stop” on the London Rd junction, it was done this way for a couple of decades before introducing the phased stops we have today. Seeing the way pedestrians behave with their life threatening defiance of moving traffic, just to save a few seconds crossing the road, I would guess that waiting even longer for an “all stop” would not be an option for quite a few.
This whole idea that we live in a quaint little village that should only experience local traffic and not be bothered by through traffic is a pipe dream, and only ever realised by tiny places like Dulwich Village.
As for the barrier, while I agree on principle, I fear for the phone zombies and entitled people who would happily step out in front of a turning bus to pass someone in their way, rather than wait a moment. The barrier I am sure has prevented many an accident, albeit at an inconvenience to some.
There is a theory that barriers don’t make people safer and removing them actually improves safety. It is possible that this is because the sites chosen were sensible sites and this one might be an exception.
But with William Hill still taking up space that should be pavement, perhaps it is worth a gamble. Or if it is too much of a gamble - perhaps we could reduce the size of William Hill instead?
Oh I agree, the removal of a lot of the barriers was a blessing, the same in other areas. Barriers are a double edged sword, but the William Hill one is definitely a exception, especially with human behaviours the way they are today.
The A205 South Circular was never designed properly; it’s a sequence of mainly residential roads - some very narrow with only a few feet between heavy goods vehicles and someone’s bedroom window (normally someone in a distressed HMO, with few other options).
The design is poor and the execution is poor, but I would prefer to have MORE traffic on this route than have high volume of rat-running through unclassified residential roads like Devonshire, Ewelme, Tyson etc.
That wasn’t the view of Ella Adoo-Kissi-Debrah when she spoke at the Forest Hill ward assembly. She suggested that wealthy residents should share the burden of pollution rather than killing children living on the south circular - she may have a point.
There may be better ways to tackle rat running than pushing all the traffic through the town centres and making life harder for cyclists and pedestrians. Preventing right turns from the westbound south circular into Devonshire Road would reduce congestion on Devonshire Road, improve traffic flow on the south circular and improve the southbound rat running on Devonshire Road. In fact Devonshire Road may be improved by making it one way the entire length (north to south).
But I take your point that allowing safe crossing of the south circular at the station could mean more people rat running down Devonshire road and Waldenshaw road, unless alleviating factors were introduced.
I think many of us would oppose that, because it would draw more traffic in, and it would be faster. For commuter traffic, the congestion is an issue; for residents I think the volume of traffic is the primary problem.
Again: if Silverdale/Thorpewood can have No Through Traffic, why not Devonshire? Whatever criteria was used for that decision [can someone put that into the public domain?] I would bet that Devonshire/Woodcombe/Ewleme scores highly on the same criteria.
I t would be improved for commuters. I think many of us would oppose that, because it would draw more traffic in, and it would be faster traffic. For commuter traffic, the congestion is an issue; for residents I think the volume of traffic is the primary problem.
the view of Ella Adoo-Kissi-Debrah
Disappointing that you want to guilt-trip someone trying to reduce traffic on local rat-runs.
I think the idea of completely closing roads for through access is problematic. Obviously not for those living in it and exempt from the restrictions. But for those living in the roads left carrying the volumes of traffic.
Regardless of vision, traffic isn’t going anywhere soon (no pun intended) Allowing it to pass through with as little obstruction as possible is in the best interests for all.
At speed, maybe not, but without creating more and more bottle necks and creating jams on the few remaining through roads, yes.
As Michael has said there are many alternative routes to using the South Circ, but plans to close roads to through traffic reduce these more and more. The more you travel around London, the more you see impacts of there schemes, and how detrimental they are to travel.
There will of course be those who say use public transport, but we know that has its challenges on the best of days.
To me, totally closing roads is a bad idea. Making them directional, or at worst limiting through traffic for peak hours, is a better solution. Silverdale could easily be no through traffic 7 til 10 and 4 til 7. Could even limit certain types of vehicles. Schemes like this are monitored by cameras using ANPR and AI which can see what it what and fine accordingly. The same could be applied to other roads like this, such as Devonshire.
Not sure that has been said anywhere. Just like the closures around Honor Oak too. Legacy road closures, while a pain in the butt for local traffic are part and parcel now.
But creating more and more blockages becomes a problem. Devonshire is one of many roads that experience more than their fair share of traffic. So what happens when everyone on those roads also says they want it closed. Woolstone, Mayow, where do we stop.
Silverdale moved traffic from Silverdale to Kirkdale and Mayow, both of which also have high footfall of school kids.
For example to 83 Silverdale from the Cobbs Corner, rather than a 0.3 mile drive past no schools, is a 1.2 mile drive in close proximity to 4 schools, driving past 2 schools directly and 2 entrances to Mayow Park.
Lol not quite sure what you mean, but rest assured I have no interest in change to any of the legacy /older/historic /previous or whatever term you prefer, road closures.
As someone who travels by foot and cycle a lot of the time, and commutes by car to work 3 days a week in the complete opposite direction, I have no direct interest in any of the above. Just voicing my opinion.
That would be my preference and it’s something that I’ve been banging-on about for years.
It would only need a diagonal line set-back about a metre from the existing shop front door so it would hardly affect the shop internally, although a few m2 of prime shopfront advertising space would be lost. The upper floor could remain as-is with that corner being supported by what I assume would be a pretty simple cantilevered legged frame.
Overall, I’d’ve thought there would be a negligible loss of value to the occupier of the shop or the owner and I don’t know what it would cost to get their respective agreement to do the alterations, but I would I be miles out to assume that the benefit to the town centre would be worth c.£100k?
Not me. I’m reporting what was said in a local assembly and seems to be council policy. So while TfL and local councils fight between their differing priorities, nothing happens in places like Forest Hill.
People in Devonshire Road have plenty of complaints - speed of traffic, volume of traffic, damage to parked cars and gridlock on the road. A one way road would solve the last two of these issues. Speeds can be solved in other ways including pedestrian refuges on a narrow road.
Traffic volume is an interesting issue. Do we think that the 2-way flow of traffic on Devonshire road reduces the amount of rat running? I’m not sure and would be interest to hear what other people think. Because I’ve got i feeling that everybody who knows about that route uses it already - despite cars coming at them the other way.
Would the one way route just make it so much faster or would car still get stuck in a jam getting out of Devonshire? In fairness that is exactly what happened when Davids Road went from two way to one way, it became more of a rat run when cars didn’t have to pass in either direction (and eventually Manor Mount got closed because of the amount of rat running).
If you look at the Thorpewood Avenue No Through Traffic scheme through the prism of that argument, it raises an interesting question. Why are the children at Holy Trinity School, whose classroom windows face directly onto the Avenue, not benefiting from the scheme and potentially experiencing more traffic and pollution as a result of displacement?
Around 30% of pupils at Holy Trinity are eligible for free school meals. Yet the scheme protects just 41 houses on the section of Thorpewood Avenue above Radlet Avenue, while displaced traffic passes the school further down the Avenue.
Whatever the original criteria for the scheme, I think it would be interesting to ask who has actually benefited from the reduction in traffic and who has ended up absorbing the displaced traffic.
Back to the junction, if the main pedestrian route could be made a single crossing, I think a countdown timer would also help. People would know how long they have to wait rather than becoming impatient and taking risks.
Very good point and one of many similar situations. Adamsrill and St Michael’s in Sydenham have similar with one benefitting and one less so. Although the scheme was eventually extended to Champion Crescent and they are now considering further extensions.
Re the crossing, sadly countdowns in the UK work with time remaining to cross rather than time to wait to cross. Other countries seem to do the reverse. That said once again, as driving through the junction this evening, if people want to cross, they simply cross, regardless of light colour or moving traffic.
Side note, I am sure this is one of the reasons for quite a lot of car vs pedestrian accidents, peoples straight up entitled view that they can cross when they please and it’s on the motorist to stop.
That’s a good suggestion. Given that the Forest Hill Society was supportive of the scheme when it was introduced, perhaps the Society would be well placed to submit the FOI and ask for the original criteria, impact assessment and any before-and-after traffic data, including the impact on Holy Trinity School and residents affected or inconvenienced by the scheme and displaced traffic.
I’ll contact the Society offline and see if they’re willing to look into it.
Another 20 mins. Weekday at lunchtime but before the schools return. Can’t wait to get some footage during rush hour next week.
20 minutes over Forest Hill. A timelapse of lunchtime traffic flow. Looking forward to doing this again about about 7.30am once the schools are back to see the difference. 🤭
