So I know the topic of a crossing on Perry Vale by the subway is regularly discussed, but I have always wondered how much it would be used, so today I started a study (loose term) to see where people cross.
Where would YOU place a crossing?
People watching from above. The flow of people coming from a busy commuter train and crossing the road. Where do people choose to cross? Where would you put a crossing?
Directly opposite the subway. There are raised areas on the roadway, ignored by vehicles. I read somewhere that they wouldn’t install a crossing since the sight lines are inadequate. Ridiculous then to have designed the new road layout like this.
The problem with that is, the majority of people seem to cross before and after it. Obviously those coming directly out of the subway would be more likely to use it, but commuter footfall doesn’t.
The sightlines are weird and always have been since City Walk was built.
The barriers on either side of the road by the subway may have an impact on any observations of where people cross.
If there was a safe crossing close to the subway I think we would see plenty of people using it. I also think it might be the cheapest way to support businesses in Perry Vale by reducing their separation from the rest of the town centre.
I wouldn’t call it a separation. If people can’t be bothered to cross a road coming from the stairs at the station and walking towards Dacres, they are not going to find much more down there.
If you watch where people choose to cross, especially the main footfall, it’s anywhere but outside the subway.
Two different groups of people I guess, but that has never been my first place of choice to cross.
I always cross to the left of the subway exit to reach the shops on the other side of Perry Vale.
Same, or right around the corner towards the pub.
Is this on your left as you leave the subway, or on your left facing the subway? Is this exclusively when leaving the subway, or also when walking towards it?
Do you mean Dacres Road?
Crossing Perry Vale by the station is dangerous for a fit attentive adult, but even more so for a parent with one or more young children, or heavy shopping, or disability. I’m surprised we’re not mentioning Waldram Place - which is even more dangerous. I agree with Michael that these heavy traffic flows and lack of crossings are undermining trade for shops in Perry Vale.
If I’m crossing Perry Vale, I try to pick a spot 1) away from the junction with Waldram Place and 2) with visibility of traffic from both directions. I take more risk if I’m in a hurry.
Waldram Place is the worst! I would rather cross Perry Vale any day.
Just interesting watching people behaviours. It’s clear there is no one solution fits all.
I am proposing a “side road zebra crossing” on Waldram Place.
These are now approved in the UK, but not widely used. They are not official zebra crossings (with flashing beacons) that REQUIRE drivers to stop, but they are just the striped white lines on the road that are mainly there to remind drivers that pedestrians (and other vulnerable road users) have priority at side road crossings like this.
It would not solve all problems, but would at least make crossings safer if a larger percentage of drivers were prompted to actually look out for pedestrians rather than racing around the corner.
(as you say, the sight lines are not adequate for an official zebra crossing, so this is the next best)
On my left as you leave the subway.
Bad enough trying to cross it at the Perry Vale end near The Pantry, but some people even try crossing at the junction with the South Circular. It’s really remarkable that Lewisham Highways and TFL have allowed this prioritisation of vehicle traffic in Forest Hill to persist. Again, I have to say that we have had passive disinterested representation for a very long time!
If the sight lines are inadequate, why did they design the road layout that way? They had an opportunity to sort out that area when the old buildings were demolished. The old road was completely reorganised. As it is we have a restaurant occupying over half of the pavement and straying onto the narrow paved area with their barriers and eye-height umbrellas.
The fact that even on here there are differences of options of where the crossing point should be. And with so many sources of foot traffic, the solution is impossible other than to pedestrianise that part of Perry Vale. Which I am sure is a dream scenario for some, but completely unrealistic.
Unfortunately one of the biggest issues is the behaviour of people, especially commuters crossing all over the place. If the crossing were to be outside the subway, I would say 90% of commuters arriving at Platform 2 would not use the crossing even if they were heading in that direction. It’s just standard people behaviour.
Even when the temp crossing was there for the roadworks, only a small percentage used it. Of course, the most important thing here is the vulnerable, and of course a crossing would be great.
That said, the powers that be would argue it’s lack of use would not justify it. Even if the sightlines were overcome.
In regards to why it was not planned better in the past, I would suggest it’s because there had never been a crossing there, the sightlines were “adequate” in places, but not suitable for a crossing to legally be put there.
Could some railings help the issue you identify? Wouldn’t stop everything but a short stretch of railings is likely to push people towards a zebra/pelican.
I think the question “Where do people cross Perry Vale” is very interesting and would be worth trying to map. But there are a lot of variables:
In which direction are people crossing and what is their destination? This will vary depending on purpose of travel, eg commuting via the station or shopping locally. The curvature of the road also has a bearing on where people cross: crossing west to east and you have good sightlines in both directions; crossing east to west the sightlines are terrible and it feels high risk.
Train commuters: morning commuters using platform 1 will be heading for the subway. Return journey via platform 2 and they’ll exit at the platform 2 exit. Vice-versa for anyone commuting southbound.
Shoppers: will use the subway in both directions.
Home location: anyone living at the top end of Perry Vale has limited opportunities to cross and have to do it on the troublesome section. Anyone heading south of the Foresters Arms has options further down the road: pedestrian refuges or the zebra crossing. And anyone on the west side of Perry Vale doesn’t need to cross at all.
I’ve done a rough outline of the residential areas most inconvenienced:
Green: don’t need to cross
Amber: have options of where to cross
Red: have to cross at the top end
I live in the amber area.
Crossing westward heading for the station (platform 1 therefore the subway) I cross near the corner of Hindsley’s Place and Perry Vale (outside the City Walk flats) as I feel this gives me the best sightlines of traffic.
Coming home, exiting from platform 2 and needing to head eastwards, I usually continue walking on the west side of PV until I get to one of the crossings (which one depends on whether there’s a break in traffic at a particular crossing just as I reach it, or whether I just feel like walking on a particular side of the road). Yesterday, having read Snazy’s post on the train, I crossed immediately from the platform 2 exit (there happened to be no traffic at the time) - it felt very easy. I realised I only ever do that if I’m coming home late at night and running to the 356 bus stop.
In short, crossing westwards towards the town centre I cross on the curved section in a particular place. Heading home eastwards, from either platform 2 or the subway, I rarely cross on the curved section and instead cross at one of the various points further south.
I think the location of a crossing should be for the benefit of people in the red section and businesses at the top end of Perry Vale as they have most need for it, so should be located in a place convenient for them, which is probably closer to the platform 2 exit rather than the subway. But the possibility of that is limited by the tight curve of the road.
I love the depth of thought gone into this reply. Kudos!
Indeed there are many variables. I think one of the biggest is people constrained by time will cross opportunistically. Somewhere along their route to or from the station for example, they will simply cross when the chance arises. Rather than going to a certain point to cross.
Watching from the air this is exactly what I see, and people heading in similar directions will all cross in slightly different places. Like the true nerd I am, I have been watching this on and off for a couple of weeks now.
You are definitely right about the final destination playing a part, and that’s clear from peoples movements too.
Some actually don’t even seem to care too much about oncoming vehicles. They cross where and when they please.
This of course doesn’t address the biggest issue and that is the more vulnerable trying to cross the road. I would agree with the long term proposal that IF there were to be a crossing, the logical place would be by the subway. However with NO expectations that it would be used by the majority of commuters.
This is correct, but also depends on the nature of the road and the type of crossing. On the other side of the station there is a crossing, but many people (me included) would rather run across the South Circular, than get stuck in the metal cage on the island in the middle of the road - waiting for the second part of the two-phase crossing.
If you have time, an observation of the A205 side would be interesting.
I shall absolutely have a look on that side too. I would say the difference with the London Rd side is the majority interact in some way with the crossing.
My preference is similar to yours, and that’s not to be in the cage, but that’s mostly down to my dislike of being close to other people.
There are of course those who just throw themselves into traffic. I guess the difference with the Perry Vale side is the volume of traffic to contend with.
I am currently trying to work out which train times to target for observing. Not being a train commuter I have no idea what time they get busy in each direction.
7:30/8:00 would probably be busy outbound, and 18:00/18:30 inbound
