Tweaks to Devonshire Road to improve traffic flow

Local talk
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What do people think needs to happen on Devonshire Road to make the backed up traffic issue less of a problem?

To be honest it happens infrequently enough that I don’t worry about it too much, but I know it’s an issue of local concern.

As a resident of the street, I’ve seen so many suggestions over the years - modal filters where residents could pass and everyone else would pay a fine, closing it off to traffic, etc., but I’ve never seen this simple suggestion, which occurred to me when I had to wait a minute or so to drive down the road from FH this morning.

It seems to me that the big issue is with the first five or six car spaces on Devonshire Road. Once you get cars trying to pass each other in both directions there, it backs up. The road widens out thereafter. So what about simply putting double yellows for 50 or 100 metres further from the South Circular than they currently go?

I think that could take care of 90% of the problem that comes about, apart from when there’s a major local road closure and Google Maps diverts drivers to Devonshire Road in place of the South Circular, or Honor Oak Road.

I know it may not be to the taste of the people who live right at the end of the road, and like to park there, but feel it could be better than the other proposals on the table.

if you look at the below photo it’s probably only six spaces that would be lost, too.

I am not fond of the idea of a modal filter as it is too easy to pick up a fine if you don’t spot the sign in time.

And I believe the road is an escape route for high vehicles before they hit the railway bridge, so as I understand it, the street can’t be closed off completely, and nor would I want it to be, quite frankly.

Thanks for reading!

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I would prefer blocking both ends of Devonshire to thru traffic using cameras - similar to Silverdale and Bishopsthorpe. I don’t agree that the priority for any new scheme is free-flowing traffic. The priority is reduction of the volume of traffic, which is too much (noise and vibration) for a narrow unclassified 100% residential road.

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Wood Vale also has similar issues during the peaks where cars pile up turning into London Road, part of that problem is cars blocking the junction when they try to join the lane into Sydenham Hill.

I would have suggested banning cars joining the lane into Sydenham Hill but since there’s no right turn into Sydenham Rise from London Road, it’d make congestion even worse as cars would have to use Dartmouth Road instead.

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Would residents be allowed to drive to their homes under your proposal? If so, as someone who lives on Devonshire Road that would suit me just fine, but I know a lot of very unfair tickets would be issued, which people can ill afford given cost of living pressures.

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Well, the idea of closing both ends is an idea rather than a proposal, as I haven’t been able to discover how decisions are made and where a proposal could be lodged.

It seems to me that Devonshire Road has suffered from the impact of decisions taken nearby which have increased the pressure by increasing the volume of traffic. Some examples:

  1. No right turn into Wood Vale
  2. No entry at the top of Manor Mount
  3. Various barriers preventing thru traffic between Forest Hill and Honor Oak on the East side of the railway between Forest Hill and Honor Oak (Stanstead Road, Beadnell Road, Garthorne Road, Grierson Road).

These and other decisions have increased the pressure on Devonshire, Woodcombe Crescent, Ewelme, Tyson and other roads.

In addition I feel that the area has suffered from weak disinterested political representation, and it has been impossible to find out how decisions are taken, the Council has simply not provided criteria for how decisions are taken. One road can be viewed as a rat-run and action taken to reduce traffic, but others view the same road as ‘strategically important’ and residents are ignored.

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Thanks - interesting. @rob I think you mentioned that the FHSoc has been working up some proposals for that junction - are you able to share what the current thinking is, and if there has been much in the way of insights from the Telraam traffic counters that I think a few houses have installed?

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Given that some drivers actually enter the road to accelerate, making the road effectively wider, by preventing parking at the ends, would only encourage thIs IMO.

Am curious as to what high sided vehicles would ever need to use Devonshire as an escape route? Double decker buses pass under the bridge by Forest Hill station.

Would prefer blocking both ends for cars. Others have suggested make both ends right turn only which could work.

As a resident at the Honor Oak end can confirm that anti social driving and behaviour is a regular occurrence (fights have happened). Dangerous driving happens often too including motorbikes mounting pavements.

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The Society has not come up with a specific plan as we are not traffic planners and do not have the funds to pay for a professional one. However, we have made some suggestions to consider, and would like the Council to explore these as a starting point, and to come up with proposals that residents and other stakeholders could consider.

Our main proposal is to stop the right turn from the South Circular at Waldram Crescent onto Devonshire Road, and similarly stopping commuting traffic turning onto Devonshire Road from the Honor Oak Park end. However, the idea is not to stop all traffic on the road, but make it an unsuitable alternative route for pass-through (or rat run) traffic.

The additional benefit of the plan is that without the traffic waiting to turn right, the three lanes under the Forest Hill rail bridge could be reallocated to have a continuation of the bus and cycle lane on the way towards London Road, making the route faster for buses and safer for cyclists.

Lewisham had already identified Devonshire Road as a likely candidate for a new cycle lane in their active travel strategy, and this can only possibly take place if we remove a great deal of the traffic.

In terms of what we have found with the Telraam devices, we have struggled to get all the ones installed we wanted to, but you can clearly see that the high volumes of traffic on streets like Ewelme and Woodcombe Crescent are rat-run vehicles, so removing these and leaving the space open for residents to use in a more social fashion, would clear space for walking, wheeling and cycling in the area.

We are hoping that our new councillors will take this up and find a way to get a proper plan created by their experienced officers.

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Thanks very much. It’s an interesting idea! I can certainly see how it would cut down considerably on traffic entering Devonshire Road, and I’d need to think carefully about it.

Would the thinking be that people like us who live on Devonshire Road and wanting to return home from Catford would have to go up to the Esso, along Honor Oak Road and down Ewelme Road to get home?

If so that’s quite a lengthy diversion, that would add considerably to the amount of time it takes to get home.

But let’s see what the councillors and officers make of it.

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It might, yes, sadly. I know that this is often used as an argument against change (not saying you are doing that), but a little extra travel time ONLY when in a car, and a HUGE reduction in passing traffic and pollution, plus the opportunity for adding cycle lanes and other street improvements, would definitely be worth it (I think). Certainly worth considering anyway.

There are alternatives, such as making it passable for residents (using ANPR), and since many fewer would be turning right there, it might still be possible to change the road configuration for buses, but leave the possibility of turning there open - however, I think this would cause confusion and resentment when you’re followed in by an unwary commuter who then will be charged a large fine … so might not be as straightforward.

I do realise that there are knock on issues to consider, including the turning onto Honor Oak Road from London Road (it needs a right turn filter) and better traffic management on Honor Oak Road itself that may take some extra traffic, but still has a school on it.

Anyway, as I say, it is a starting suggestion for consideration, not a plan. What we do need is traffic reduction on our residential streets, and there are many things we can do to achieve that.

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Thanks for replying so thoughtfully.

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There’s a lot to unpack here…

Yup, Devonshire Rd is a traffic nightmare.

We live on the Honor Oak end of the road, and have witnessed regular road rage, fights, and even a ‘hit & run’ accident involving my car that was parked in front of our house.

Sad to say, but it is not a safe road to cycle along, neither would I suggest letting children play in the street, which is something I’ve admired on other roads in the neighbourhood.

Hope is that the traffic nightmare gets some attention, now we have a Green Mayor and a Councillor that actually lives on Devonshire.

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Thank you for using that very phrase. I believe we are all talking about a complex system with many variables, but so-far no one has raised the notion (in public) that we are indirectly having a discussion about systems theory. The same applies to our discussions about the economics of the high street etc.

I am a wannabe systems theory nerd and I have waited patiently to raise the topic at the most relevant time, and it feels right now.

I remember as a child the sudden appearance of a barrier blocking the entrance to Grierson Road outside originally what was then a bank.

I don’t necessarily have the power to shine a torch onto the problem, but I cannot go on in all clear conscience until I am convinced that discussion about traffic must go hand in hand with the realisation that systems theory is part of this picture.

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I’ve been thinking about this quite a bit today. From an environmental perspective it would certainly make sense if residents of Devonshire Road did not have to take a one mile detour to reach their home via Honor Oak Road. (I just calculated that on Google maps).

Avoiding that would save roughly 400g in CO2 emissions per journey, which would add up over the course of a year based on all the residents of a street.

So on balance I think I would be supportive of a no right turn except for residents coming off the south circular from Catford. You’d just need a couple of these signs placed prominently:

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I appreciate the concern about unauthorised drivers following residents making that turn and being caught getting a ticket, but I’m sure the signage could be made clear enough.

is ANPR advanced enough yet to distinguish between motorists turning left off the south circular being approved and motorists turning right coming from the opposite direction being prevented from making the turn?

To @yomster’s point up thread, I remember the first time we visited Devonshire Road, we got stuck in a traffic jam at the Honor Oak end, and I had to get out and become an ad hoc traffic manager, waving people up and down the road to try and clear the blockage. It was a nightmare. Somehow I think the orange and white bollard of the e-scooter parking space makes things much worse, leaving so little space for cars to pass at that end.

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Thoropewood Ave is an interesting comparison. The road was a direct route between Dartmouth Rd and Kirkdale. Residents complained of rat-running, and the road was blocked so that you can drive in, but not all the way through. Probably just coincidence that at least one Labour ex-councillor lives there.

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Actually that’s a really good point. I wonder if anyone has ever considered putting a barrier half-way along Devonshire Road, somewhere between Tyson and Dunoon roads, to prevent through traffic? That would seriously disincentivise people from using Devonshire as a cut-through, and combined with widening the road at either end, as per my original suggestion up at the top, could seriously mitigate the traffic problems, without causing any great hardship to residents of the street.

I wonder whether @Fergus_NB has his feet far enough under the desk as our new green councillor yet to take a look through this thread, and let us know where his current thinking lies? I know tackling the Devonshire Road traffic situation is one of his top priorities.

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That wouldn’t have much effect, as the main rat runs are (1) Devonshire A205 Junction < - > Woodcombe Crescent < - > Ewelme Road; (2) Devonshire A205 Junction < - > Tyson Road.

To have a similar effect to the Thorpewood barrier, it would need to be between the A205 junction and the junction with Woodcombe Cresc.

Your original post prioritises improving traffic flow; my priority is reducing the volume of thru traffic - daily commuting via narrow 100% residential roads.

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I think the only way this may work is if the road is completely blocked off at the Forest Hill end of Devonshire Road. That way all traffic has to use the Honor Oak Park end and travel via Brockley Rise and Stanstead Road.

It’s what Southwark council did with their Dulwich Village LTN by blocking the village end of Court Lane, which stopped rat running from Lordship Lane into the village, making cars use Lordship Lane and East Dulwich Road instead. Would be controversial though as I’d prefer the block somewhere central along Devonshire Road which would allow residents access from both ends depending on where they live.

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Another key consideration is access for emergency vehicles. There is an ambulance station on David’s Road. Imagine if they had to go round the houses an extra mile to attend an emergency somewhere at the FH end of Devonshire…it could mean the difference between life and death.

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This is no longer an issue, as physical barriers would not be installed. The ‘barriers’ are notices and cameras - as with Silverdale and Bishopsthorpe.

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